Curse

pah01 · Dec 17, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Dear All,

A debilitating skill is something which stops you doing what you normally would be doing for a period of time. This could be healing, attacking or whatever.

These skills have a dual potential for the game.

1. They can make the game more tactical because debilitating effects add depth to the game. This is whether or not it is melee hate or caster shutdown.

2. They can also make the game really unfun because sometimes such skills are broken. When these kinds of skills are broken they should be obviously seen to be so.

How to balance these skills.

The first point I would like to make here is that the easiest way to decide how broken something is, is measure its effect on 4v4 play in TA. For some this may be hard to do but given the very nature of this format Debilitating effects which are spammable break this format. They can also raise their ugly head from time to time in 8v8 formats but not so bad because there are other factors too.

Take a gold standard skill that has been considered balanced from the beginning.

Example:

Backbreaker - The effect is 4 sec KD with damage. Drawbacks are melee and adrenaline gain. Nonetheless it is a fool who thinks this skill is underpowered.

Now look at broken skills.

List

1. Recurring Insecurity.
2. Wail of Doom.

The problem with these skills is spammability, duration on the first, the fact that both these skills have great synergy with any other hex.

Paul

Karate Jesus · Dec 17, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Now look at broken skills.

List

1. Recurring Insecurity.
2. Wail of Doom.

The problem with these skills is spammability, duration on the first, the fact that both these skills have great synergy with any other hex.

Paul

I'll give you WoD as being broken, but RI? Are you crazy? RI isn't even near broken. When have you ever seen RI destroy anything? The cost, recharge, and the degen aren't really even decent. If you ever did high end pvp, you'd know that no one uses this.

Breakfast Mc Rit · Dec 17, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

I never understood how people could subject themselves to the asshattery of TA and RA and like it, much less expect balance for such broken formats.

xDusT II · Dec 17, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I'll give you WoD as being broken, but RI? Are you crazy? RI isn't even near broken. When have you ever seen RI destroy anything? The cost, recharge, and the degen aren't really even decent. If you ever did high end pvp, you'd know that no one uses this.

From the period from when it was buffed to when it was fixed, the skill was unable to be removed by anything other than a few select skills that removed all hexes off a target at once. Not even Peace and Harmony could remove it and instead re-applied it numerous times. This meant that if RI was on the top of the hexstack (Which it would be, because every time you tried to remove it it would re-apply itself at the top), the only way to remove hexes covered by it was through skills like Purge Signet.

matti90 · Dec 17, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I'll give you WoD as being broken, but RI? Are you crazy? RI isn't even near broken. When have you ever seen RI destroy anything? The cost, recharge, and the degen aren't really even decent. If you ever did high end pvp, you'd know that no one uses this.

Heard unremovable hexes are (were) baed? confirm/deny?

Truegen · Dec 17, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Yes...skill balancing is always an issue, however Anet's downfal is that when they rain, they pour; instead of just updating ~10 new elites entirely, they change 30 and say "have at it!" On paper, I'm sure all these updates look fine and balanced (although sometimes even I wonder "what in the world were they thinking?"), but it's not until THEY see it as "unbalanced" will they consider changing it

While I do agree that WoD maybe be a bit over-buffed, there are many other more dangerous fish in the sea. All us players can do is hope to make it painfully obvious to them that we all want a change, or just learn to adapt to it (thanks, Darwin).

Sway really never took a beating nerf-wise, but people learned the build's mechanics and its weaknesses and it just became too easy to beat (with a team that has talent, that is...not all teams can beat it to this day). My advice is painfully exploit it to draw more attention to it's "unbalanced-ness" (I know it's not a word) or bring diversion/hex removal. Sucks, doesn't it?

Karate Jesus · Dec 17, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

From the period from when it was buffed to when it was fixed, the skill was unable to be removed by anything other than a few select skills that removed all hexes off a target at once. Not even Peace and Harmony could remove it and instead re-applied it numerous times. This meant that if RI was on the top of the hexstack (Which it would be, because every time you tried to remove it it would re-apply itself at the top), the only way to remove hexes covered by it was through skills like Purge Signet.

And that lasted a whole....3 days? OMG! GWs is unbalanced because a mediocre degen hex couldn't be removed. Oh, and people in HA and GvG found out that it could be removed with Purge sig in like 8 hours, so people quit using it soon after that.

Moloch Vein · Dec 17, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I thought this thread was going to be about Peace and Harmony...

the Puppeteer · Dec 17, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Update - Monday, December 15, 2008
[edit] Bug Fix

* Fixed a bug that caused Recurring Insecurity to reapply itself when removed.

umm - hello...?

xDusT II · Dec 17, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

And that lasted a whole....3 days? OMG! GWs is unbalanced because a mediocre degen hex couldn't be removed. Oh, and people in HA and GvG found out that it could be removed with Purge sig in like 8 hours, so people quit using it soon after that.

Umm what?

The fact that it was fixed so quickly illustrates how broken it was in that 3-day period.RI's own effect wasn't overpowered sure, but it's ability to cover other more dangerous hexes (Like say, all the ones buffed in the last update) was what made it so broken.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Dec 17, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

To the OP, your analogies are pretty bad, and while I agree that Wail is mostly a brainless 'shutdown' skill, especially in shit like BSpike etc. I really don't agree that RI should be labeled as such.

I think you probably shouldn't comment on a game you don't play, and haven't played (at least seriously) for a long time.

TrippieHippie89 · Dec 17, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

hmmm...how do i stop a scrub ta necro from spamming wod over and over...if only there was a skill that stopped spamming, nevermind i guess theres no possible way to stop someone from spamming mindlessly...completely impossible

oh btw, sig hum and diversion said sup

Trylo · Dec 18, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Personally i like the new updates; theyre trying to make elite skills actually elite. before, 3/4 the elites were as mediocre as normal skills. Now theres at least a choice between elites for some of the classes for PvP.

also, im not really sure how much izzy wants to "balance" the game as shake it up every month. i for one really enjoy the new found "choice" for elite skills that i now have.

pah01 · Dec 18, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

missed update.

BUTTTTT

Mark of insecurity is broken as well.

Icy The Mage · Dec 18, 2008, 12:56 AM // 00:56

[debilitating shot]
^ Most debilitating skill evar. :\

scruffy · Dec 18, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

id rather see skills like blackout/WoD being used than skills like power block

to me, an ideal mesmer interupt would look like this

5 energy, 5 recharge, 1/4 casting time. If target foe is casting a spell or chant, it is interupted.

10 energy, 10 recharge, 1/4 casting time. If target foe is casting a spell or chant, it and all nearby enemies are interupted.

spammable interupts that dont have any other effects but are used off of their own merit. the rest of the bar would have actual shutdown effects rather than shutdown that is reliant on reflex.

seriously, look at power block/power leak and tell me how much emphasis you actually want to put on having the reflexes/ping to interupt 3/4 spells reliably in your game, all things like this really do is limit people, when the same type of effects could be achieved through different ways that takes more planning/timing/knowledge than reflex.

Dshot is better because it's harder to land the interupt on sheer reflex, and rangers need something worthwhile to do so they dont just mindlessly spread poison

id rather have shutdown as something you actively use, rather than have it as something that waits for the enemy to do something and then stop them from doing it

i like diversion though because its a mixture of both, most of the time they wont want to cast,but they can choose to and pay the price, and you can also use it to get a specific skill

the main problem with diversion is that the game is designed to have skills that when they get shut down the whole team breaks apart because they no longer have that 1 component out of 64 available temporarliy.

Phe Belladona · Dec 18, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

id rather see skills like blackout/WoD being used than skills like power block

to me, an ideal mesmer interupt would look like this

5 energy, 5 recharge, 1/4 casting time. If target foe is casting a spell or chant, it is interupted.

10 energy, 10 recharge, 1/4 casting time. If target foe is casting a spell or chant, it and all nearby enemies are interupted.

spammable interupts that dont have any other effects but are used off of their own merit. the rest of the bar would have actual shutdown effects rather than shutdown that is reliant on reflex.

seriously, look at power block/power leak and tell me how much emphasis you actually want to put on having the reflexes/ping to interupt 3/4 spells reliably in your game, all things like this really do is limit people, when the same type of effects could be achieved through different ways that takes more planning/timing/knowledge than reflex.

Dshot is better because it's harder to land the interupt on sheer reflex, and rangers need something worthwhile to do so they dont just mindlessly spread poison

id rather have shutdown as something you actively use, rather than have it as something that waits for the enemy to do something and then stop them from doing it

i like diversion though because its a mixture of both, most of the time they wont want to cast,but they can choose to and pay the price, and you can also use it to get a specific skill

the main problem with diversion is that the game is designed to have skills that when they get shut down the whole team breaks apart because they no longer have that 1 component out of 64 available temporarliy.

PBlock needs changed no doubts but seriously you think WoD is better (its better than PBlock for 4secs and you dont even need to hit anything!), thats crazy talk! and mesmer interupts without effect would just make them pointless and ppl would take more pew pew rangers (yes even more rangers than they already do..) as really all they need to do is keep aegis down and dis shot guardian anyway. mesmer interupts have longer recharges and effects to reward you for not spamming, yes its highly ping orientated but a lot of ppl i know who play mesmer (including myself) play around 200+ping anyway, plus theres no problem with there being an aspect of a game thats reflex dependant - its not a turn based game.

but yes do something with PBlock: 10Energy 1/4Cast 15Recharge, disables for 1..6seconds (maybe 7)

thats just off the top of my head, now in addition to this change make it so you can only have rank 9 max on any 2nd proffession skill line cause i want those FC things dead.

oh and obviously nerf some of the new hexes.. Nearby AoE 180ish damage and 33% reduced healing over 30secs from a 1sec cast hex in a very powerful line? YES PLEASE! 20 seconds of "zOMG weapon of warding/shield bash or im DEAD!"? GO ON THEN :P! seriously not cool. and if 100Blades could be run with a conjure, bulls and a res sig i'd be livid cause that thing really needs to not hit the target.

but its been an exciting shake up tho warrior bars, necro(i mean ofc me/n) and some runners and monk bars are all thats been changed in regularly seen stuff. but for the monthly eeeep scary hexways all round i'd imagine.

whispering warlock · Dec 19, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

seriously, look at power block/power leak and tell me how much emphasis you actually want to put on having the reflexes/ping to interupt 3/4 spells reliably in your game, all things like this really do is limit people, when the same type of effects could be achieved through different ways that takes more planning/timing/knowledge than reflex.

agree with phe, i also play mes at 200 ping, and many do i guess.
and quarterknocking isnt reflex and ping related? dshot? infuse?
you cant just go randomly interrupt skills as mesmer, no energy for that plus recharge is too long.
also, planning/timing/knowledge is of great importance when playing pb.

do agree it probably needs change. but change fc water and necros first plz
(so i can reflex them down :P)

I Jonas I · Dec 19, 2008, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

to me, an ideal mesmer interupt would look like this

5 energy, 5 recharge, 1/4 casting time. If target foe is casting a spell or chant, it is interupted.

let me show you one:

[savage shot]

scruffy · Dec 19, 2008, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by whispering warlock

agree with phe, i also play mes at 200 ping, and many do i guess.
and quarterknocking isnt reflex and ping related? dshot? infuse?
you cant just go randomly interrupt skills as mesmer, no energy for that plus recharge is too long.
also, planning/timing/knowledge is of great importance when playing pb.

do agree it probably needs change. but change fc water and necros first plz
(so i can reflex them down :P)

Suffice it to say that I think interupts should have stayed as low cost-spammable skills with little to no extra benefits than what you gain from the interuption, and give the rest of the bar interesting shutdown effects.

Jonas The Keen: Savage Shot is a Ranger skill